Discussion:
Closures / anonymous methods
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Maciej Izak
2016-10-25 13:06:01 UTC
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Hi,

I'd like to take over work on closures/anonymous methods:

http://newpascal.org/compass.html (point #5).

Patch/hg repository from original author has gone away but I have made
copy. My working repository is here:

https://github.com/maciej-izak/freepascal/commits/closures

I sent here original patch.

I will rework this functionality according to all suggestions from Jonas
and Sven (reference to all informations avaible in NewPascal "compass"
listed above).

any objections?
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Maciej Izak
Michael Van Canneyt
2016-10-25 13:45:04 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
Hi,
http://newpascal.org/compass.html (point #5).
Patch/hg repository from original author has gone away but I have made
https://github.com/maciej-izak/freepascal/commits/closures
I sent here original patch.
I will rework this functionality according to all suggestions from Jonas
and Sven (reference to all informations avaible in NewPascal "compass"
listed above).
any objections?
None, on the contrary. Glad that someone is taking it up.

One remark only: you should keep it independent of (or orthogonal to)
the work you did on management operators.
One should not depend on the other...

Michael.
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Maciej Izak
2016-10-25 17:53:09 UTC
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One remark only: you should keep it independent of (or orthogonal to) the
work you did on management operators. One should not depend on the other...
Yes I know and I agree :P One branch for Generics.Collections, one for
Management Operators, one for Smart Pointers, one for patches and new one
for Closures.

I hope that Github has enough space for all branches...
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Maciej Izak
B***@blaise.ru
2016-10-25 14:09:50 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
I'd like to take over work on closures/anonymous methods
In theory, that is fine by me (the author).
However, if I were to formally pass the bucket to you, I would like to settle with Scooter Software on my work done thus far.
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w***@windstream.net
2016-10-25 15:30:30 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
Post by Maciej Izak
I'd like to take over work on closures/anonymous methods
In theory, that is fine by me (the author).
However, if I were to formally pass the bucket to you, I would like to settle
with Scooter Software on my work done thus far.
if i/we may ask, what happened to your Patch/hg repository? why did it go away?
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B***@blaise.ru
2016-10-25 15:49:38 UTC
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Post by w***@windstream.net
if i/we may ask, what happened to your Patch/hg repository? why did it go away?
As I said to Sven back then: "I did some server maintenance on 27th June, and I have had no incentive to put that part back yet".
That is the only reason: lack of time.
(But, AFAIR, there has been only a couple of minor bug fixes since then.)
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Maciej Izak
2016-10-25 17:57:08 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
In theory, that is fine by me (the author).
Good to hear that
Post by B***@blaise.ru
However, if I were to formally pass the bucket to you, I would like to
settle with Scooter Software on my work done thus far.
What Scooter Software has to GPL licensed code?
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B***@blaise.ru
2016-10-25 18:38:53 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
What Scooter Software has to GPL licensed code?
It has to do with what is right.
Allow me to provide a little background:
1) I do not use FPC at all;
2) Essentially, I was "hired" by Scooter Software (they do use FPC, I presume) to implement the subj (after one other person failed to improve on my earlier work);
3) I have not abandoned this project (and I am as frustrated with the pace as you may be; although, the previous disruption was not my fault -- I had allocated last December to finally have this merged, but got no response from maintainers within a month).

TL;DR: while there may be nothing preventing you from just grabbing the feature-ready files and "taking over" from the legal standpoint (and I do not care to check), there are other implications to consider.

The other reason I mentioned Scooter Software is that they may be interested in funding your further work. (The list does not reflect this, but I CC'ed my original message to them to keep them in the loop.)
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Maciej Izak
2016-10-25 21:36:58 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
3) I have not abandoned this project (and I am as frustrated with the pace
as you may be; although, the previous disruption was not my fault -- I had
allocated last December to finally have this merged, but got no response
from maintainers within a month).
... I understand ... :\
Post by B***@blaise.ru
TL;DR: while there may be nothing preventing you from just grabbing the
feature-ready files and "taking over" from the legal standpoint (and I do
not care to check), there are other implications to consider.
The other reason I mentioned Scooter Software is that they may be
interested in funding your further work. (The list does not reflect this,
but I CC'ed my original message to them to keep them in the loop.)
that is very interesting for me. Thanks?

btw. your work (with my modifications and with regression tests) will
become part of NewPascal release (for sure!) and I hope it makes you less
frustrated :)
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Maciej Izak
B***@blaise.ru
2016-10-25 22:03:59 UTC
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your work (with my modifications and with regression tests) will become part of NewPascal release (for sure!) and I hope it makes you less frustrated :)
Now you have me confused.
I thought you wanted to "take over" acceptance of this into FPC and doing further improvements.
What is this NewPascal? How official is it? Are the changes ported to FPC? (Googling through the lists.freepascal.org did not help.)
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Maciej Izak
2016-10-25 22:58:34 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
Now you have me confused.
I thought you wanted to "take over" acceptance of this into FPC and doing
further improvements.
What is this NewPascal? How official is it? Are the changes ported to FPC?
(Googling through the lists.freepascal.org did not help.)
NewPascal is official compiler for mORMot. NewPascal means tuned compiler
more Delphi compatible with additional support for mORMot framework, cross
compiling and early access for new features. More info about changes and
differences with comparison to official FPC:
http://newpascal.org/compass.html . All is reported on FPC bugtracker. I
can't do much in that matter.

... I also want acceptance of all important patches into FPC (that is why I
will work on your patch). We really need NewPascal fork, to get important
patches/modifications in reasonable time, for example merge for finished
Generics.Collections took 2 years...

Many users likes more modern Pascal (for example oxygene mode is also one
of NewPascal targets), FPC core team likes more old fashioned Pascal... I
do not believe that core team would accept oxygene mode/patch. Anyway...

*NewPascal is and will be as close FPC trunk/bugtracker as possible*.
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Maciej Izak
Sven Barth
2016-10-26 09:43:15 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
Many users likes more modern Pascal (for example oxygene mode is also one
of NewPascal targets), FPC core team likes more old fashioned Pascal... I
do not believe that core team would accept oxygene mode/patch. Anyway...

As long as it's really a separate mode (plus maybe modeswitches for
selected features, that other modes might profit from) I don't see a
problem with adding an Oxygene mode.

Regards,
Sven
Michael Van Canneyt
2016-10-26 09:56:56 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
Post by Maciej Izak
Many users likes more modern Pascal (for example oxygene mode is also one
of NewPascal targets), FPC core team likes more old fashioned Pascal... I
do not believe that core team would accept oxygene mode/patch. Anyway...
As long as it's really a separate mode (plus maybe modeswitches for
selected features, that other modes might profit from) I don't see a
problem with adding an Oxygene mode.
Indeed. This is the reason modes were invented.

Michael.
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Maciej Izak
2016-10-26 10:32:32 UTC
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Post by Sven Barth
As long as it's really a separate mode (plus maybe modeswitches for
Post by Sven Barth
selected features, that other modes might profit from) I don't see a
problem with adding an Oxygene mode.
Indeed. This is the reason modes were invented.
This is obvious. I won't touch the holy OBJFPC mode ;). Ever. I am worried
about the speed of reviewing patches and integrations. For example:
Management operators are key feature for many elements in Oxygene mode.
Today I am 28 years old. I think that maybe before my 40th birthday FPC
team decide to merging Management Operatos into trunk -,- . If Oxygene
patch is next, which relay on MO... 80th birthday?
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Maciej Izak
Michael Van Canneyt
2016-10-26 10:48:18 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
Post by Sven Barth
As long as it's really a separate mode (plus maybe modeswitches for
Post by Sven Barth
selected features, that other modes might profit from) I don't see a
problem with adding an Oxygene mode.
Indeed. This is the reason modes were invented.
This is obvious. I won't touch the holy OBJFPC mode ;). Ever.
Management operators are key feature for many elements in Oxygene mode.
Today I am 28 years old. I think that maybe before my 40th birthday FPC
team decide to merging Management Operatos into trunk -,- . If Oxygene
patch is next, which relay on MO... 80th birthday?
I am happy to report that you are wrong. They are currently under discussion.
Some valid concerns were raised.

By the looks of it, they may be integrated before long.

Please understand:

Free Pascal is a team project.
This means you cannot expect to have all patches integrated here-and-now.

Specially when they are as invasive as yours.
You are in essence converting pascal to a C++ clone with this MO patch.
Is it so bad that this is discussed thoroughly first ?

I understand your youthful impatience, just have a little more patience :-)

Michael.
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Paul van Helden
2016-10-26 11:33:01 UTC
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On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Michael Van Canneyt <
Post by Sven Barth
As long as it's really a separate mode (plus maybe modeswitches for
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
Post by Sven Barth
selected features, that other modes might profit from) I don't see a
problem with adding an Oxygene mode.
Indeed. This is the reason modes were invented.
This is obvious. I won't touch the holy OBJFPC mode ;). Ever. I am
Management operators are key feature for many elements in Oxygene mode.
Today I am 28 years old. I think that maybe before my 40th birthday FPC
team decide to merging Management Operatos into trunk -,- . If Oxygene
patch is next, which relay on MO... 80th birthday?
Specially when they are as invasive as yours. You are in essence
converting pascal to a C++ clone with this MO patch. Is it so bad that this
is discussed thoroughly first ?
+1 for Oxygene mode. An Oxygene mode to me will be like early Christmas and
the next 10 years' Christmases rolled together!

I disagree that modernizing Pascal is making it into a C++ clone. Why not
take the best features of C++ while keeping Pascal readable? (FPC did that
allready with I+=2, not that I'm arguing this is more readable. A better
example would be ** vs. Power() - a no-brainer if you ask me, though I'd
prefer ^ which was in Algol).

Allowing EMB to dictate the future of Pascal is just wrong. Look what
they've done with parallelism compared to Oxygene's clean (Pascal-like)
approach. How is TParallel.For Pascallish? The difference seems to be that
Pascal purists don't want to add keywords, while Oxygene adds many new
keywords (eg. nullable, future, async, for parallel, is not, etc).

And then for some flame-bait: I like declaring variables inside begin..end;
;-) To me it looks perfectly Pascallish if it starts with var.. and it is
necessary anyway for duck typing, nullable types, etc.
Michael Van Canneyt
2016-10-26 11:51:05 UTC
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Post by Paul van Helden
Specially when they are as invasive as yours. You are in essence
converting pascal to a C++ clone with this MO patch. Is it so bad that this
is discussed thoroughly first ?
+1 for Oxygene mode. An Oxygene mode to me will be like early Christmas and
the next 10 years' Christmases rolled together!
I disagree that modernizing Pascal is making it into a C++ clone.
It depends on how you do it.

What is being introduced with management operators is RAII.
(Resource Acquisition Is Initialization)
This concept (using copy/clone constructors etc.) comes from C++.

Javascript doesn't have it. Python also not (to my knowledge).
And these are so-called 'modern' languages.

Michael.
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Michael Schnell
2016-10-26 12:47:46 UTC
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Post by Paul van Helden
+1 for Oxygene mode. An Oxygene mode to me will be like early
Christmas and the next 10 years' Christmases rolled together!
Hmmm, Oxygene introduces several new concept.

To me, parallel loops seem most interesting (and "modern" as modern
multi-core chips can be decently used). But Oxygene can use the
underlying Framework for the dirty work, while FPC would need to build
the support (thread pool)for this completely new in the RTL.

-Michael
Florian Klämpfl
2016-10-29 11:29:41 UTC
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to get important patches/modifications in reasonable time,
for example merge for finished Generics.Collections took 2 years...
While I agree that we are merging invasive changes slowly, this is a little bit unfair as
Generics.Collections required a lot of bugs to be fixed before it could be merged:
http://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=27206
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Maciej Izak
2016-10-29 19:06:47 UTC
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Post by Florian Klämpfl
While I agree that we are merging invasive changes slowly, this is a little bit unfair as
http://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=27206
Last serious bug was fixed around rev. 29537 (January 2015). Ok just ~1,5
year. My bad ;). Sven had a lot of doubts about manual interfaces
:P... Anyway I am very happy that we finally have rtl-generics!
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Zoë Peterson
2016-10-31 02:30:35 UTC
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We (Scooter Software) don't care who or how it it gets into Free Pascal,
as long as it eventually ends up there. :) We do need it in FPC proper
though, not New Pascal, because we need it on Linux and macOS, and our
build process is complicated enough that I wouldn't want to throw a
cross compiler into the mix.

Blaise, I'm fine settling up with you if Maciej takes over. Is there a
foreseeable schedule for you finishing if he doesn't?

Maciej, we can kick in some additional bounty to push it through if
it'll help. We can discuss things off list if you get it going.
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B***@blaise.ru
2016-10-31 13:58:00 UTC
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We do need it in FPC proper though, not New Pascal
I was going to ask you to clarify that; thanks.
Blaise, I'm fine settling up with you if Maciej takes over. Is there a foreseeable schedule for you finishing if he doesn't?
I am ready to allocate a week or two from my schedule in the next month for this, but:
1) I would like a general commitment from the decision-makers to include this. By that I mean A) they want the feature, B) they are ready, in concept, to accept this patch (it may not implement the full support, but it fully implements the core and hardest aspects), provided that we work out the easy details (how to name stuff, where to put it, and blocking bugs -- should we find any).
2) I would like a commitment from at least one of the committers to work closely with me during that period on resolving issues that prevent merging. And by that I mean to be ready to react to my changes/questions within a day/two/three (not a month) as we both go through the list item by item.
Provided that we agree on the two above points, I believe we can have it merged by the end of November.

Not a hard requirement, but, additionally, it would be nice if your staff (at Scooter Software), or someone on this mailing list, took over the formal tests (writing, running, integration).

I would like to emphasise that the stages that depended solely on me (however long they were) have ended last December. Now, collaboration is required from some devs and users who want this feature.
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Sven Barth
2016-11-24 18:38:07 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
We do need it in FPC proper though, not New Pascal
I was going to ask you to clarify that; thanks.
Blaise, I'm fine settling up with you if Maciej takes over. Is there a
foreseeable schedule for you finishing if he doesn't?
Sorry for the long delay. I didn't want to answer this on my phone and
it had taken a while till I remembered that I wanted to answer this
while being in front of my desktop computer... mea culpa
Post by B***@blaise.ru
1) I would like a general commitment from the decision-makers to include
this. By that I mean A) they want the feature, B) they are ready, in
concept, to accept this patch (it may not implement the full support,
but it fully implements the core and hardest aspects), provided that we
work out the easy details (how to name stuff, where to put it, and
blocking bugs -- should we find any).
Yes, to both A and B.
Post by B***@blaise.ru
2) I would like a commitment from at least one of the committers to work
closely with me during that period on resolving issues that prevent
merging. And by that I mean to be ready to react to my changes/questions
within a day/two/three (not a month) as we both go through the list item
by item.
That might be the biggest hurdle as this is after all a voluntary
project and how one organizes one's free time is a topic in itself...
That said I'll be at home next week due to a vacation and my hope is
that I'll be able to work on a couple of FPC topics that are still open.
Post by B***@blaise.ru
Provided that we agree on the two above points, I believe we can have it
merged by the end of November.
Not a hard requirement, but, additionally, it would be nice if your
staff (at Scooter Software), or someone on this mailing list, took over
the formal tests (writing, running, integration).
Tests are very important indeed.

Regards,
Sven
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Maciej Izak
2016-11-25 08:44:55 UTC
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Post by Sven Barth
mea culpa
So what next? Blaise is still interested in? Am I alone on battle field? Is
Scooter Software around? I am confused.
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Sven Barth
2016-11-25 14:12:31 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
Post by Sven Barth
mea culpa
So what next? Blaise is still interested in? Am I alone on battle field?
Is Scooter Software around? I am confused.

Give them some time to answer. After all I had written this mail not even
24h ago. ;)
Nevertheless I've now added both Blaise and Zoë in CC so that they're
definitely aware that there's a reply.

Regards,
Sven
Zoë Peterson
2016-11-25 17:34:52 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
So what next? Blaise is still interested in? Am I alone on battle
field? Is Scooter Software around? I am confused.
Yes, we're still around. Yes, we're still willing to throw some money
at anyone else who can help get this pushed in, whether that's Blaise,
Sven, or Maciej. I don't have experiencing with the compiler team
organization or patch process though, and we're preparing a new release
right now though, so aside from money, I'm not sure we'll be able to do
anything until it's pushed into trunk. We need the feature for new
code, not existing, so I don't have test cases, and I can't justify the
time to develope that code until I know we'll be able to use it.
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B***@blaise.ru
2016-11-25 14:06:28 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
I would like a commitment from at least one of the committers to work closely with me during that period on resolving issues that prevent merging. And by that I mean to be ready to react to my changes/questions within a day/two/three (not a month) as we both go through the list item by item.
I'll be at home next week due to a vacation and my hope is that I'll be able to work on a couple of FPC topics that are still open.
So, is that a commitment? Do I book my next week for this? :)
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Sven Barth
2016-11-25 18:10:50 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
Post by B***@blaise.ru
I would like a commitment from at least one of the committers to work
closely with me during that period on resolving issues that prevent
merging. And by that I mean to be ready to react to my changes/questions
within a day/two/three (not a month) as we both go through the list item by
item.
Post by B***@blaise.ru
I'll be at home next week due to a vacation and my hope is that I'll be
able to work on a couple of FPC topics that are still open.
Post by B***@blaise.ru
So, is that a commitment? Do I book my next week for this? :)
Just to be sure: we're talking about the week from 28th to 2nd. If so, yes
I'll try to make sure that I'm available. Maybe I'll even hang around on
IRC :)

Regards,
Sven
Maciej Izak
2016-12-05 10:16:40 UTC
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Post by Sven Barth
Just to be sure: we're talking about the week from 28th to 2nd. If so, yes
I'll try to make sure that I'm available. Maybe I'll even hang around on
IRC :)
Any new info? Link to repository? Should I continue?
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Sven Barth
2016-12-05 10:36:27 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
Post by Sven Barth
Just to be sure: we're talking about the week from 28th to 2nd. If so,
yes I'll try to make sure that I'm available. Maybe I'll even hang around
on IRC :)
Post by Maciej Izak
Any new info? Link to repository? Should I continue?
I didn't get any mail from Blaise during my holidays... Until he's replied
again I'd say to let it be for now.

Regards,
Sven
B***@blaise.ru
2016-12-05 13:36:52 UTC
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Post by Sven Barth
I didn't get any mail from Blaise during my holidays
As agreed, I have allocated time, and I have been working.
(FTR, I really want(ed) you to enlist for the task we discussed, so we would work in parallel.)

For now, with your latest letter, I have all the info I need from you.
(I have one pending question on terminology, but I believe it belongs to the list, so I will ask here.)
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Sven Barth
2016-12-05 13:44:09 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
Post by Sven Barth
I didn't get any mail from Blaise during my holidays
As agreed, I have allocated time, and I have been working.
(FTR, I really want(ed) you to enlist for the task we discussed, so we
would work in parallel.)

You never wrote that you'd now start or that you'd now be available in IRC
or whatever. Missing that I simply worked on bugs and other stuff that came
along...
Post by B***@blaise.ru
For now, with your latest letter, I have all the info I need from you.
(I have one pending question on terminology, but I believe it belongs to
the list, so I will ask here.)

You mean that from around a year ago? Yeah, that should contain most points.

Regards,
Sven
B***@blaise.ru
2016-12-05 14:12:15 UTC
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Post by Sven Barth
You mean that from around a year ago?
No. Your latest letter to me is dated 26.11.2016.
In which, instead of accepting the offer, you chose to write a (much appreciated) HOWTO.
(The offer stands; should you reconsider, kindly email me directly.)

Otherwise, as I stated above, no help/answers is required for now; and I am working.
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Maciej Izak
2016-12-05 14:57:37 UTC
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Post by Sven Barth
You mean that from around a year ago?
No. Your latest letter to me is dated 26.11.2016.
I see big problem with communication. Seems like I am special mediator.
Without my notification the topic was almost dead for 1 year. Now we have
similar situation again probably for another year or two.

I need that feature to start many other related features in my compiler
work. For example I like to start experiments with "yield" and other stuff
(compiler code behind closures is usefully).

From my experience with management operators:

* The patch can't be simple as one big patch, the working feature is just a
start (in current form, closures are not in that stage yet - see problems
with already implemented "blocks" by Jonas). State of closures IMO is far
far away from "ready to merge".
* When big patch is ready you need to rework whole patch for small commits
* Each owner/author of feature, should be able to create full-test suite,
generally only author knew how it works in all details, and how to create
proper test suite to cover low level scenarios, so community could not help
much with test suite (sure - bug reports and related tests are fine but I
mean test suite prepared by core team for each new feature).
* The style of compiler code *must* be exactly same in all parts (after
many hours with compiler I think it is perfect).

Did I miss something important? I might be wrong.

Let me know if you do not have enough patience for FPC core team ;). I will
do it :P...
--
Best regards,
Maciej Izak
B***@blaise.ru
2016-12-05 16:46:53 UTC
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Post by Maciej Izak
the topic was almost dead for 1 year
Because much communication occurred off-list.
Post by Maciej Izak
if you do not have enough patience for FPC core team
What I do not have is respect for schismatics who create unnecessary forks, splitting the community and resources.
--
βþ
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Maciej Izak
2016-12-05 19:35:58 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
Because much communication occurred off-list.
:) in that case all is ok. Good luck. I have hope to see new release soon.
I will try to create few tests.
Post by B***@blaise.ru
if you do not have enough patience for FPC core team
What I do not have is respect for schismatics who create unnecessary
forks, splitting the community and resources.
Indeed! That would be terrible. I think that is good that we don't have any
Lord Vader nor Emperor :)
--
Best regards,
Maciej Izak
Ondrej Pokorny
2017-07-20 22:24:33 UTC
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Post by B***@blaise.ru
Otherwise, as I stated above, no help/answers is required for now; and I am working.
What is the progress?

Ondrej
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Blaise Thorn
2017-07-20 23:56:57 UTC
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There has been some feature-level progress; in particular, capturing across arbitrary level of nested and nameless routines is now supported, along with proper lifetime management.
Sven has read-write access to the source.
No other features are planned by me before the merge. I am currently hung up on a couple of FPC bugs. Once I file them, I will enable public read access.
--
βß
Marcos Douglas B. Santos
2017-10-17 12:28:25 UTC
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Post by Blaise Thorn
There has been some feature-level progress; in particular, capturing across
arbitrary level of nested and nameless routines is now supported, along with
proper lifetime management.
Sven has read-write access to the source.
No other features are planned by me before the merge. I am currently hung up
on a couple of FPC bugs. Once I file them, I will enable public read access.
What is the progress?

Best regards,
Marcos Douglas
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