Discussion:
Graphical RAD IDE in FPC
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Alexander via fpc-devel
2018-09-17 03:51:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I try use of MSEide,gui beforehand Lasarus, but excellent result not get.

Lasarus use non native for FPC widgets, MSE non stable work.

Console FPC excellent work, but without graphics.

Need more attention for RAD graphical environments from side FPC developers.

Author MSE say that bad some **drivers**, but it need to more accurate test.

I made http://soft.self-made-free.ru/ 'Birthdays reminder' on minimal
set of possibles of MSE and it worn on this driver, but IDE on this driver work incorrect.

May be say author about driver is wrong ?

In all need search problem. In FPC, in MSE, in drivers, in kernel, in xorg, in wayland ...

I want use excellent full-free RAD IDE more power than Delphi in GNU/Linux.
With specific graphics and network possibles GNU/Linux what more than in Windows.
Include possibles made self Linux Desktop/WM, DM ... On FPC widgets.
With autocomplete.

By rework/combine exist IDEs or made new RAD IDE especially for GNU/Linux.

Good Luck,
Alexander.
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Sven Barth via fpc-devel
2018-09-17 05:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
Lasarus use non native for FPC widgets, MSE non stable work.
Huh? Please explain that. Lazarus is *the* example for using native widgets
and is one of the points the authors of MSE and fpGUI complain about with
the LCL.

Regards,
Sven
Alexander via fpc-devel
2018-09-17 06:20:40 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 07:52:24 +0200
Post by Sven Barth via fpc-devel
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
Lasarus use non native for FPC widgets, MSE non stable work.
Huh? Please explain that. Lazarus is *the* example for using native widgets
and is one of the points the authors of MSE and fpGUI complain about with
the LCL.
Regards,
Sven
I obtain lazarus_1_8_4 sources and make it.
See about dependent Lazarus: GTK widgets. GTK is C widgets, but not native Pascal widgets.

MSE have independent widgets. I want have RAD IDE, not just IDE. This is advantage Pascal over C.
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Michael Van Canneyt
2018-09-17 06:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 07:52:24 +0200
Post by Sven Barth via fpc-devel
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
Lasarus use non native for FPC widgets, MSE non stable work.
Huh? Please explain that. Lazarus is *the* example for using native widgets
and is one of the points the authors of MSE and fpGUI complain about with
the LCL.
Regards,
Sven
I obtain lazarus_1_8_4 sources and make it.
See about dependent Lazarus: GTK widgets. GTK is C widgets, but not native Pascal widgets.
When we speak of "native widgets", we mean "native to the operating system".

What you mean is 'pure pascal' widgets.

Lazarus can work with the 'custom-drawn widgetset' or with fpGUI. Both are
pascal implementations of widget sets. I don't know how well these widgetsets work.

In each case, I do not believe that creating a pascal widget set will result
in a better RAD experience.

Using the operating system's widget sets ensures that you use a widgetset which
has been tested by a much larger audience than just the pascal community.
They will be more stable and bug free than a pure pascal implementation.

Michael.
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w***@windstream.net
2018-09-17 17:11:52 UTC
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Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
I obtain lazarus_1_8_4 sources and make it.
See about dependent Lazarus: GTK widgets. GTK is C widgets, but not native Pascal widgets.
AFAIK, the term "native" is about OS widget look... not about language vs
language...
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Martin Schreiber
2018-09-17 06:46:08 UTC
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Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
I try use of MSEide,gui beforehand Lasarus, but excellent result not get.
Lasarus use non native for FPC widgets, MSE non stable work.
Can you be more specific? Reproducible MSEide+MSEgui bugs are normally fixed
in hours or one to two days.
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
Console FPC excellent work, but without graphics.
Need more attention for RAD graphical environments from side FPC developers.
Author MSE say that bad some **drivers**, but it need to more accurate test.
I made http://soft.self-made-free.ru/ 'Birthdays reminder' on minimal
set of possibles of MSE and it worn on this driver, but IDE on this driver work incorrect.
May be say author about driver is wrong ?
Do you mean the "EXA pixmap acceleration" problem with Radeon and other
opensource Linux graphic drivers? I was not able to find a bug or a
workaround in MSEgui. The EXA acceleration system is not maintained it seems:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69543
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84253
Please use the proprietary graphic driver for your graphic chip, it has been
reported that they work well with MSEgui. Debugging Linux kernel modules and
graphic drivers is out of my possibilities.

There are more "unsolvable" issues with drawing primitives, ex.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99705
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=106628

or with window managers. The Linux Mint team stole the show:
https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=251027
where the Cinnamon devels marked reports for bugs which already have been
fixed in Gnome3 as spam.
Take a potion of popcorn and follow the links...

It looks to me that Linux desktop environment developers only check if Firefox
works OK. If yes, all further reports are ignored or the reporters are
treated as idiots. BTW, the Lazarus GTK widgetset probably also suffers from
minimized -> normal windowstate issue in Cinnamon.
I don't have the time or nerves anymore to fight such battles, MSEide+MSEgui
users must become active themselves.

Please don't answer to this mail, use the MSEide+MSEgui mailinglist instead:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/mseide-msegui/lists/mseide-msegui-talk
Archive:
https://www.mail-archive.com/mseide-msegui-***@lists.sourceforge.net/

Thanks, Martin
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Alexander via fpc-devel
2018-09-17 11:25:07 UTC
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Hi Martin,

1. On my computer with free drivers **working all soft** exclude MSE.
2. Non free dirivers is not drivers. Not needed.
3. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69543 developers dont known Pascal and MSE :)
4. May be problem MSE on this drivers from **network** and **time delay** issues ?
On nonfree drivers delays minimized and MSE have time for display img ?
Incorrect architecture for xorg ?

On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 08:46:08 +0200
Post by Martin Schreiber
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
I try use of MSEide,gui beforehand Lasarus, but excellent result not get.
Lasarus use non native for FPC widgets, MSE non stable work.
Can you be more specific? Reproducible MSEide+MSEgui bugs are normally fixed
in hours or one to two days.
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
Console FPC excellent work, but without graphics.
Need more attention for RAD graphical environments from side FPC developers.
Author MSE say that bad some **drivers**, but it need to more accurate test.
I made http://soft.self-made-free.ru/ 'Birthdays reminder' on minimal
set of possibles of MSE and it worn on this driver, but IDE on this driver
work incorrect.
May be say author about driver is wrong ?
Do you mean the "EXA pixmap acceleration" problem with Radeon and other
opensource Linux graphic drivers? I was not able to find a bug or a
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69543
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84253
Please use the proprietary graphic driver for your graphic chip, it has been
reported that they work well with MSEgui. Debugging Linux kernel modules and
graphic drivers is out of my possibilities.
There are more "unsolvable" issues with drawing primitives, ex.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99705
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=106628
https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=251027
where the Cinnamon devels marked reports for bugs which already have been
fixed in Gnome3 as spam.
Take a potion of popcorn and follow the links...
It looks to me that Linux desktop environment developers only check if Firefox
works OK. If yes, all further reports are ignored or the reporters are
treated as idiots. BTW, the Lazarus GTK widgetset probably also suffers from
minimized -> normal windowstate issue in Cinnamon.
I don't have the time or nerves anymore to fight such battles, MSEide+MSEgui
users must become active themselves.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mseide-msegui/lists/mseide-msegui-talk
Thanks, Martin
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Martin Schreiber
2018-09-17 12:21:54 UTC
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Hi Alexander,

It is not allowed to discuss MSEide+MSEgui themes here. I will answer on the
MSEide+MSEgui mailing list:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/mseide-msegui/lists/mseide-msegui-talk
Archive:
https://www.mail-archive.com/mseide-msegui-***@lists.sourceforge.net/

Martin
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Alexander via fpc-devel
2018-09-17 13:08:20 UTC
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Why not allowed ?

Here resolve future of FPC.

Currently good and full resolved only console part of FreePascal. Need graphics.

Desintegrate community is not way for resolve this problems.

If need then integrate here xorg, kernel, rms developers until problem is not resolved.

Not separate.

On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 14:21:54 +0200
Post by Martin Schreiber
Hi Alexander,
It is not allowed to discuss MSEide+MSEgui themes here. I will answer on the
https://sourceforge.net/projects/mseide-msegui/lists/mseide-msegui-talk
Martin
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Michael Van Canneyt
2018-09-17 13:14:15 UTC
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Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
Why not allowed ?
Because MSEide+MSEgui is a different project.

Free Pascal makes a compiler. Not a GUI.

You can use the compiler to make a GUI and a RAD IDE, but this is not the
goal of the FPC team.

There are other teams who focus on that.

If you have questions about RAD/IDE/GUI's you need to ask on the MSEide+MSEgui
list, or the lazarus list or the fpGUI list.

Michael.
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Ralf Quint
2018-09-17 15:53:23 UTC
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Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
Why not allowed ?
Here resolve future of FPC.
Currently good and full resolved only console part of FreePascal. Need graphics.
Desintegrate community is not way for resolve this problems.
If need then integrate here xorg, kernel, rms developers until problem is not resolved.
Not separate.
Sorry Alexander, but that is bollocks!

There is no need to "integrate" any of these, it is not even logically
possible.
And what you seem to be forgetting is that FreePascal (and Lazarus) work
not only on Linux but are cross-platform. You HAVE TO use the widget set
of the underlying OS, as much as possible. In fact, you SHOULD use
native OS widgets where ever possible. It would be utter nonsense to try
and reproduce each and everything on Windows, Linux, macOS and all the
other OS that Lazarus supports...

Ralf

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Alexander via fpc-devel
2018-09-17 17:40:17 UTC
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In fact, you SHOULD use native OS widgets
I SHOULD ??? Not-not. I NOT SHOULD something in principle.

In GNU/Linux Core and widgets is independent.

"Native" (dictate) "widgets" is only in Windows. It bad OS and relegate delete.

GNU/Linux is infinity more power OS, than Windows.

I known cross-platform method, but say not about it.
For GNU/Linux need RAD IDE coincide power and possibles. This **systems** not equal.

On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 08:53:23 -0700
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
Why not allowed ?
Here resolve future of FPC.
Currently good and full resolved only console part of FreePascal. Need graphics.
Desintegrate community is not way for resolve this problems.
If need then integrate here xorg, kernel, rms developers until problem is not resolved.
Not separate.
Sorry Alexander, but that is bollocks!
There is no need to "integrate" any of these, it is not even logically
possible.
And what you seem to be forgetting is that FreePascal (and Lazarus) work
not only on Linux but are cross-platform. You HAVE TO use the widget set
of the underlying OS, as much as possible. In fact, you SHOULD use
native OS widgets where ever possible. It would be utter nonsense to try
and reproduce each and everything on Windows, Linux, macOS and all the
other OS that Lazarus supports...
Ralf
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Ralf Quint
2018-09-17 17:45:29 UTC
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Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
In fact, you SHOULD use native OS widgets
I SHOULD ??? Not-not. I NOT SHOULD something in principle.
In GNU/Linux Core and widgets is independent.
"Native" (dictate) "widgets" is only in Windows. It bad OS and relegate delete.
GNU/Linux is infinity more power OS, than Windows.
I known cross-platform method, but say not about it.
For GNU/Linux need RAD IDE coincide power and possibles. This **systems** not equal.
Again, I am sorry Alexander, but you need to get out of the house and
"smell the roses". Take off your blinders, the real world is far
different from what you imagine/pretend it to be.

It's not only Windows vs Linux (seems you are effected by Stallmanitis),
but this applies for macOS as well. Or OS/2. Or any other OS that
Lazarus (which is the IDE for FreePascal, among a couple others) supports.
As Michael already mentioned, FreePascal is just a compiler, if you want
to discuss ANY RAD environment, please use a more appropriate mailing
list, fpc-devel is only about the compiler itself...

Ralf

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Tomas Hajny
2018-09-17 22:42:56 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, September 17, 2018 19:40, Alexander via fpc-devel wrote:


Dear Alexander,
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
In fact, you SHOULD use native OS widgets
I SHOULD ??? Not-not. I NOT SHOULD something in
principle.
In GNU/Linux Core and widgets is independent.
.
.

As already correctly pointed out by others, this mailing list is intended
for discussion about development of the Free Pascal Compiler, not about
RAD tools, either existing or potential ones. If you want to start
discussions on other topics, feel free to use the list fpc-other instead.

Thank you

Tomas
(one of FPC mailing list moderators)


P.S.: As probably well-known, especially to people using Internet as long
as some of our subscribers, writing words in uppercase is considered as an
equivalent of shouting and thus not very polite. Please, stick to polite
communication on this list (and preferably elsewhere too ;-) ).


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Ralf Quint
2018-09-18 01:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tomas Hajny
P.S.: As probably well-known, especially to people using Internet as long
as some of our subscribers, writing words in uppercase is considered as an
equivalent of shouting and thus not very polite. Please, stick to polite
communication on this list (and preferably elsewhere too ;-) ).
And people that really use the Internet for a long time, should also
know that capitalizing _single words_ means to put an *emphasize* on
them (as "back in the good old days" there was just plain text emails,
with no option for underline, italic or bold), rather than shouting.
Shouting is considered when the whole sentence/message is written in all
caps... ;-)

Ralf


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Tomas Hajny
2018-09-18 08:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralf Quint
Post by Tomas Hajny
P.S.: As probably well-known, especially to people using Internet as
long as some of our subscribers, writing words in uppercase is considered
as an equivalent of shouting and thus not very polite. Please, stick to
polite communication on this list (and preferably elsewhere too ;-) ).
And people that really use the Internet for a long time, should also
know that capitalizing _single words_ means to put an *emphasize* on
them (as "back in the good old days" there was just plain text emails,
with no option for underline, italic or bold), rather than shouting.
Shouting is considered when the whole sentence/message is written in all
caps... ;-)
While I understand that netiquette rules may have slight variations, e.g.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 doesn't have any kind of distinction
between using capital letters for single words or whole sentences and
suggests different approach for emphasizing. My 26 old experience suggests
the same. In any case, any potential responses to this message should be
sent to fpc-other (or me personally) rather than to this list, because
this topic is not on topic here.

Tomas


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Marco van de Voort
2018-09-17 18:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@windstream.net
Post by Alexander via fpc-devel
See about dependent Lazarus: GTK widgets. GTK is C widgets, but not native
Pascal widgets.
AFAIK, the term "native" is about OS widget look... not about language vs
language...
It is not just look, but also feel. IOW that the keyboard navigation works
the same, that the application adjust to skins etc.
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